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31 comments:
I find comparisons between the "War" in Iraq and WWII to be somewhat.... unrealistic. I also doubt that there was ever any question about "Ike's" reports to either the White House or the Public. The world was a little different then.
Moorcat
Debunk commentaries lacking required foundational information on Politics & Religion.
The world was a little different.
...nuclear capability was limited.
Alan Greenspan claims Iraq war was really for oil.
Now there's a surprise..
Unless it is about lowering rates what Alan Greenspan thinks is of little consequence.
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Moorcat, of course you find those comparisons unrealistic. Mostly so do I.
But it also illustrates my point from the earlier post that the more seriously one takes the terrorist threat, the more legitimate one tends to view the Iraq war.
The problem with that analysis is that the Iraq war is NOT about terrorism. That is a faulty analogy. The forgotten war in Afghanistan is about terrorism.
Let me say this one last time. Saddam Insane was VERY good at eliminating terrorists that operated in his country. He saw them as potential threats to his rule. By eliminating Saddam, we have actually created a situation that ENCOURAGES terrorists. In fact, by being in the middle of the Civil War occuring right now in Iraq, we are recruiting for the Islamic Terrorists.
We are actually less safe now from potential Terrorist attacks than we were BEFORE we entered Iraq.
What makes this situation even worse is that when we finally do leave Iraq, Iran is going to step in and "help" Iraq get back on it's feet. Just how will they do that? By converting the messed up cultural and religious mess in that country to a Ogliarchy just like Iran has. Iran will have access to the riches of Iraq to futher their... shall we say less than American Friendly.. agenda. Moreover, Isreal will be in REAL trouble when that happens. As an ally to Isreal, we will once again be forced into the Middle East.
Don't get me wrong, Saddam was a bad, bad man. Unfortunately the situation is far worse for us with him gone...
I take terrorism very seriously. I just don't think that it is the threat to us in the US that others do. I also think that as long as we continue to fulfill the expectations of the radical religious fanatics over there (America is the Devil... Look at them kill the faithful), we will continue to make the situation worse.
Moorcat
I understand that your position is that Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism. Will you at least acknowledge, though, that there is an opposing viewpoint that argues it has everything to do with fighting terrorism? You don't have to agree with it, just acknowledge that it exists.
The only point I really want to take issue with, though, is this: That we "continue to fulfill the expectations of the radical religious fanatics over there." I have been reading about radical Islam lately, and I don't think there's any way we can fulfill or not fulfill their expectations. I disagree that a more 'friendly' foreign policy is going to change their minds. It goes deeper than that. Contrary to the implication of your post, I don't think they're going to leave us alone if we can just figure out a better way to deal with them.
We are non-believers, and the mandate to fight us (assuming you interpret Muhammed's teachings that way) goes waaaaay back. This isn't about modern grievances.
The notion that we should not fight those who would kill us because we'll only make more people angry is not credible to me.
Did ya hear the one bout how Rumsfeld rushes into the oval office and tells Bush that three Brazilian soldiers have been killed in Afghanistan. Bush ponders this news for a moment, and then asks Rumsfeld, "How much is a brazilian"?!! True story, or so I'm told! ( I thought we needed a little levity bout now)
LK
You're right, LK, we did.
Thanks. I owe you one!
What Really Happened?
OK... Where to start.
I haven't just begun to read to about Islamic Fundementalist, I actually studied them with other religions decades ago.
The problem (as it applies here) is that it isn't the Islamic Fundementalists themselves that is the problem. They have always existed and (for the most part) they have been in VERY small minority. It is no different than here in the US. There a LOTS of Christians but relatively few radical Fundementalists. In fact, the scary Fundementalists are usually ostracised by more moderate factions of any religion.
The situation in the Middle East has changed to some extent. The Islamic Fundementalists have come out of the woodwork, and they have enjoyed a small amount of success (can anyone say 9/11). Worse, we have given them credibility by catering to thier dogma.
When we attacked Iraq - a country that had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks - we gave even more credibility to the Islamic Fundementalist. "Look what those heathans from America are doing to our brothers and sisters in Iraq". Our very presence in Iraq is a huge recruitment sign for the Fundemental Factions of the Islamic Religion.
I invite you to actually read the Koran. It is as much a book of peace as the bible. In fact, many of the attrocities that these fundemental factions use are anthema to the actual Islamic religion.
You are correct, there is nothing we can do to appease the radical Fundementalists in the Middle East. America will always be seen as the "Great Devil". The problem here is that we CAN do something about appeasing the vast majority of normal Islamic people - get the hell out of thier country. They were doing a pretty good job of ostracising thier radical brethern without us. Our lack of understanding of thier lives and thier religion is making matters worse, not better.
In short, this is a case of judging the majority by the minority. You are judging the entire Islamic people by a small percentage of radical fundementalists. That is like judging all Christians by the actions of some radical Christian cult.
Moorcat
September 13, 2007 ~
A Baghdad Statistician's Perspective on the Positives and Negatives of Polling in Iraq
by Kirk A. Johnson, Ph.D. / WebMemo #1615
(emphasis added)
Recently, The New York Times captured this sentiment when a city worker in Baquba, in Diyala Province, forcefully said, "I want them to withdraw all their troops in one day."
That notwithstanding, the Sunni worker continued:There is something that I want to say although I hate to say it. The Americans forces, which are an ugly occupation force, have become something important to us, the Sunnis. We are a minority and we do not having a force to face the militias. If the Americans leave, it will mean a total elimination of the Sunnis in Iraq.
I know I said I want them to leave, but if we think about it, then I have to say I want them to stay for a while until we end all the suspicions we have of each other and have a strong national government.
I was watching Fox & Friends last week and that picture of Ike was show in addition to a few others that were food for thought. Will see if I can find them and post the link.
PL
From Rush -
From Rush Limbaugh Archives
Photos Prove Connection Between Iraq and Al-Qaeda Terrorists
March 14, 2003
About 20 minutes before show time, we posted satellite imagery of Salman Pak - home of the terrorist training center in Iraq we've been telling you about. I want to thank Gary Napier and his whole staff from Space Imaging, Inc. for these images from their IKONOS satellite. It's not in geo synchronous orbit, so they can move it to map, measure and monitor anywhere on earth.
Moorcat, first I want to thank you for the ability to discuss this issue without calling each other idiots or Nazis or some such.
Second, you state that radical Islamists are a "VERY small minority," and then you draw a parallel to Christian fundamentalists.
I do not know your first statement to be true. I do not know how small of a minority it really is. For example, if the vast majority of Iranians (97%+) is really moderate, how then can the tiny minority hold control for so long? Perhaps, just perhaps, there is a second percentage, say moderates who won't strap bombs on but think maybe, just maybe, it's not such a bad idea to kill the infidels. Then it is a question of degree, not belief.
As far as the Christian fundamentalists, I think there is a legitimate distinction to be drawn by the outcome of their fundamentalism. Name 10 terrorist attacks committed by Christian fundamentalists in the last 20 years.
You make a valid point about appearing more reasonable to the moderate Muslims. But if they are truly moderate, can they not recognize that we are acting in an attempt, however misguided, to protect our own interests? In other words, if their automatic response is to side with the radicals, are they truly as moderate as you suggest?
I will get back to you on the whole "Religion of Peace" thing. I'm still working on that one.
Iraq's Tie to Al-Qaeda Terrorists, Airline Hijackings...
1) PBS.org Highly secret terrorist training camp at Salman Pak
2) GlobalSecurity.org: Salman Pak
3) Iraqi Captain Sabah Khodada Tells of Saddam's Facility...
PBS: Captain Khodada's hand-drawn map of the Salman Pak facility
4) PBS: Transcript of Frontline's Interview with Captain Khodada
1. Where is Moorcat's evidence to back claims other than LEFTwing talking points?
2. What LEFTwing source(s) does Moorcat use to back up claims?
3. Why doesn't Moorcat post sources?
GeeGuy's post makes me aware of how effective the left is in creating a product of Indoctrination.
Anon 3:51
First, your argument loses any credibility when you claim that my "talking points" are left wing. Statistics are Statistics, regardless of which side of the ideological aisle you are on.
Second, If it is actual numbers and charts you want, fine. I will include them next time I respond to GeeGuy (he is the only one talking here that doesn't seem like a koolaid drinker to me....).
Consider this while you wait... Ask yourself just how many Islamic people there are in the Middle East VS the rest of the world. Why haven't the others started strapping bombs to themselves and killed people. Then ask yourself how many Christians have bombed abortion clinics, shot at people working there.. or better yet, how many Christians have died in the undeclared War in Ireland?
Moorcat
Moorcat, as far as numbers and charts and statistics, I would genuinely like to see them. Rather than re-post them here, it might be easier if you just want to direct us to another one of your posts at your site. Either way, but I am interested.
You then ask "how many Christians have bombed abortion clinics." I am curious. I didn't really think it was that prevalent, maybe 3-5 over the last 10 years. Am I way off here?
And I don't think the long war in Ireland is really comparable, is it? That was two religions fighting for supremacy in a country, not one religion indiscriminately killing non-believers (and some believers) simply for the act of not believing.
How about Bosnia? Christians bombing Christians to protect Muslims.
I'm with Sally Fields, put all the women in change and they will end the wars.
They might even leave us alone and let us fish all day.
Dear Moorcat:
Considering your drinking in 130 hours of Sociology indoctrination, IF you bothered to document your opinions or talking points we could have a discussion at best, a healthy debate at least.
Until then, I must do all in my power to link information based upon facts and opinions by credible scholars to counter your alleged talking points.
Homegrown Campus Jihadist?
By Robert Spencer
"Robert Spencer is a scholar of Islamic history, theology, and law and the director of Jihad Watch. He is the author of seven books, eight monographs, and hundreds of articles about jihad and Islamic terrorism, including the New York Times Bestsellers The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) and The Truth About Muhammad. His latest book is Religion of Peace?."
By the way, there is a fascinating 27 page pdf on The Scandal of Social Work Education at Front Page Magazine.
Cordially,
A Rightwing-Tang Drinker
Anonymous 7:29 PM, September 17, 2007 says:
How about Bosnia? Christians bombing Christians to protect Muslims.
Could you refresh my memory about that?
GeeGuy,
Don't worry, I won't clog up your comments with data. I have been considering writing a post about it on my own blog for a while anyway - this just gives me an excuse.
As far as the Christian war in Ireland, yes, it is the same. It is one set of fundementalists pissed off at another set of fundementalists. The fact that they are both Christian is acedemic.
Yes, there are still bombings occuring at abortion clinics. There was one that just made the national news a short while ago. I am somewhat surprised that you missed the various blogs talking about it (BTW, unlike some people, I do NOT automatically associate Christian Religious Fundementalists with Republicans. I have seen more than enough "Democratic" Fundies to realise that there are wackos on both sides of the aisle...)
I will try to find a link to the most recent abortion clinic bombing.
Moorcat
"Could you refresh my memory about that?" This sums it up
http://www.ashevilletribune.com/
asheville/8-17/MUSLIM-FOOTHOLD.htm
Anonymous posted here and here.
Thanks for giving me a reference to read so I can try to understand how you form an opinion.
That said here is my response:
The article you reference CREATING ANOTHER MUSLIM FOOTHOLD IN EUROPE by Mike Scruggs points out and I quote adding my own emphasis:
• what Clinton did accomplish was to make the former Serbian province of Kosovo a new Muslim foothold in Europe.
• Kosovo ~ the Serbs,..their Orthodox Christian heritage. In the fourteenth Century, the population of Kosovo was 98 percent Serbian-Orthodox Christian.
• the Ottoman Turks conquered them in 1389 and remained in power there until near the end of the First World War.
• Despite persecution and sporadic ethnic cleansings under Turkish rule and continuous immigration from Muslim northern Albania, Kosovo remained predominantly Serbian and Christian until at least 1871.
• 1871 ~ showed Kosovo’s population of about 500 thousand to be 64 percent Serbian Christian.
• But from 1876 to 1912 the Turks cleansed about 400 thousand Serbs from Kosovo.
• Albania allied itself with Nazi Germany.... obliged their dream ...of more Albanians in Kosovo...
• The German Army ... retaliate against the Serbs for their fierce resistance to German occupation.
• After the war Albania became the most radically Communist state in Europe.... encouraged more Albanians to escape into Kosovo.
• the Communist rule of the Croatian, Josip Broz (Tito)... discriminate against Serbia, and illegal immigration from Albania into Kosovo....
• By 1953, Kosovo was 64 percent Albanian Muslim.
• By the time of Tito’s death in 1980, the Albanian Muslim population had risen to 77 percent of a total of 1.6 million.
• Albanian Muslims became a majority, ...began agitating for independence from Serbia and started committing atrocities against their Serb neighbors. ...included beating elderly nuns, raping young girls, and attacking monasteries.
Now, IF YOU ARE CLAIMING THE NEXT BULLET POINT AS "Christian on Christian bombing to protect Muslims"....
• Thanks to the CLINTON/U.S.. and NATO victory in 1999 and the help of ruthless ethnic cleansing and terrorism since then by the Muslim KLA (Kosovo Liberation Army), Kosovo’s population of nearly two million is now over 90 percent Albanian Muslim.
THEN YOU MUST RECOGNIZE
• Orthodox Christian Serbs have been reduced to about 5 percent. These live in a state of constant siege and fear.
OR....YOU WOULD BE grossly misleading the discussion away from AN AGENDA SET BY Bill Clinton and CARRIED OUT and DEFENDED BY Wesley Clark.
• In 1986... a report focusing on the plight of Serbs in Kosovo...argued ...Serbian population .... subjected to “physical, political, legal, and cultural genocide” ....200 thousand Serbs had fled Kosovo in the last twenty years. ...called for Serbian government action to ensure “genuine security and unambiguous equality for all peoples living in Kosovo” and for “creating the conditions for the return of the expelled Serbian nation” there.
• denounced by the old Communist guard, including Slobodan Milosovic,... But in response to public pressure and violence against the remaining Serbs in Kosovo, he began to change his thinking and policies.
• Reacting to violent Albanian agitation for independence and demonstrations
• July 5, 1990, a referendum was passed in the Serbian Republic (including Kosovo) providing for sweeping constitutional changes in the governing of Kosovo. In addition, some 40 thousand Serbian troops and police were sent to replace the Albanian-run security forces.
• Albanian reaction was continued violence and terror against Serbian civilians, police and soldiers.
• Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) became the principal resistance against Serbia’s attempt to take back control of Kosovo.
• KLA...methods soon resulted in their designation as a terrorist organization by the State Department in 1998.
•When NATO and the Clinton administration sided with the Albaniansin 1999, they became freedom fighters again.
The KLA has since proved its reputation both as terrorists and criminals. They have close contacts with such Islamist terror organizations as Al-Qaeda and are important purveyors of drugs and prostitution in Europe.
SO IF YOU ARE SAYING:
For 78 days in 1999, (NOTE: BILL CLINTON ORDERED) we bombed Christian Serbia and their forces in Kosovo, ....(BILL CLINTON'S alleged) real motive was to cripple the troublesome anti-multiculturalist Serbs and to enhance (BILL CLINTON'S) standing with the oil-rich Muslim world.
...AND
The results of ....(BILL CLINTON'S) alliance with the KLA and establishing an Albanian base of Muslim power in Kosovo have been horrific. The Albanians have driven 277 thousand Serbs from Kosovo. Hundreds have been murdered. Thousands have been robbed and brutalized as their homes and property were destroyed. Muslim multiculturalists have destroyed 135 Orthodox churches, monasteries, and shrines.
....AND
Bill Clinton’s great military achievement AS A CHRISTIAN was a humanitarian disaster, and it established a dangerous Muslim foothold in Europe that is exporting terror and crime.
YOU ARE RIGHT! Otherwise, I don't get what you mean by Christian on Christian bombing.....
Rightwing Tang Drinker
Interesting selection for your chosen alias, Moorcat
Tang Drinker - great analysis
This discussion may have become academic. I am still gathering information, but it looks like Israel just bombed the sh@@ out of a Nuc Storage site in Syria. I have yet to see anything on the American News Sites, but the BBC is reporting it as well as Israel's "sonic boom harassment" over Lebanon.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/903398.html
If this is true, things could get a lot worse REALLY quickly all over the Middle East.
Moorcat
While my Internet tag has nothing to do with this discussion, you are correct that it comes from the Terry Brook's Shanara series. I read them when they came out and I liked the idea of the Moorcat so much, I have used the handle since then. Not sure what you are trying to make of it, though...
Moorcat
RE: This discussion may have become academic.
Educational?
That that's the point and one would hope so.
Theoretical?
No, not if the secular left is challenged by talking about the role of faith and religion in history.
Israel's bombing runs - old news.
Fox News links:
Syria Claims to Have Fired on Israeli Aircraft Violating Its Airspace Thursday, September 06, 2007
Israel's Military Intelligence Chief Silenced Over Syria Strike
Fox's Middle East link
BBC link to info today
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